My thoughts on a conversation I had with a very passionate person

by Administrator | Apr 19, 2023 | Steven Arness, Thoughts

I recently had a rather lengthy and heated discussion in my “Why do boys have to be girls to be boys?” post and failed to remember a quote I came across, “Intelligent conversation ends when personal attacks begin.” And should have stopped the conversation when they resorted to that.

Now other people I’ve had this discussion with understood what I meant by it, but as can happen, some people look and take it the wrong way. Then of course it ends up going sideways, accusations and assumptions are made and it spirals down a rabbit hole.

I was also told that the discriminations and bigoted actions that I experienced were insignificant compared to women and LGBTQ issues. Of which is a matter of perspective, if you lost your phone, how involved are you in finding it? Would you also not want those around you involved helping find your phone even if they had never lost their own phone?

Losing your phone is a big deal to you, but for everyone else, not so much.

Eventually it came to the point that my replies were considered stalking, even though my reply was to a comment to a post on my own page. Of which lead that some guy is going to be in touch with me, they even told me to enjoy the experience. Thank you for the learning experience in dealing with bogus community violations and phishing websites, I hope they enjoyed the experience as much as I did.

Not that I want to rehash what happened, but I can’t, in good conscious, keep my thoughts on it unspoken.

Sorry, this may be lengthy for some.

Let’s start with the 2 statements I made,

Video message, “Why do boys have to be girls to be boys?”

Text attached,

Because we as a society say that boys acting girly or feminine should be girls. Young men fearing the same ridicule claim “Gay” or “Trans” for acceptance even if they may not be.

Yet girls acting masculine and tomboyish are praised and told “You go girl!” Girls and young women nowadays are endlessly told they can do and be anything they want to be.

It’s long overdue to let boys be boys.

“Because we as a society say that boys acting girly or feminine should be girls. Young men fearing the same ridicule claim “Gay” or “Trans” for acceptance even if they may not be.”

This statement is based on personal stories I have read and my own experiences. And unfortunately I can already see a mistake I made in that I said that young men could only claim gay or trans for acceptance. In reality it should have said “might” claim instead of inferring only those two options and I am sorry for this mistake.

I was often asked if I was gay when I wore a skirt or dress and did not change my physical appearance to pass as a female. While I did eventually figure out that gay meant a man liking other men, at the time I did not know that most gay men did not wear female clothing. It seems common however that the general public assumes a male in a dress/skirt is gay even though the same cannot be said of a female wearing pants. In fact I was hit on by other men in my recent post I made about my involvement in the Million Skirted Men March, as well as my “What color is Bigotry?” post.

Trans, I was a member of numerous crossdressing/transgender groups to further understand myself and others. Most tolerated me as a man in a dress, but some pushed that I should fully transition if I wanted to wear women’s (1) clothing. In fact one particular group relentlessly harassed me until I picked a female name, I never went back after that.

So how are boys who act girly or feminine who are still boys treated? Typically not well, especially in western society, they are often harassed and bullied when they are observed doing something typically associated with females (2). The typical comment is that one is a sissy https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59576108.amp and is used to put someone down and make them feel degraded. They can even suffer from physical and verbal assaults not only from other people, but from their own parents. My own dad took my mom’s (presumably old) clothes, put them on a burn pile and had me watch her clothing go up in smoke. The remark he made was “Dragging the family name through the mud” My mom it seems intervened and I never heard much more about it. Many others told me they have had similar experiences, and some said they transitioned just to escape the torment they were facing.

Now I never really prodded as to why some people transitioned, to each their own in my opinion, but the few I spoke with said they thought life would be easier if they were a woman instead of a man. Some men honestly told me that while they liked wearing women’s clothing, they wished they could do so without having to pass as a female as they didn’t think wearing a dress as a man was acceptable. This reaction in my opinion is all based on how we as a society treat boys and men who do not conform to traditional societal views of males (2)

Again, I was told by numerous people and groups that I should transition if I wanted to wear a skirt or a dress. This was reiterated to me countless times, for myself I did not see why I would have to be a woman if I wanted to wear a skirt or dress, it just didn’t make sense to me. As such I’ve done a lot of research and reading and found that I just like to wear skirts and dresses, nothing feminine about it and no need to change my sex/gender (3).

“Yet girls acting masculine and tomboyish are praised and told “You go girl!” Girls and young women nowadays are endlessly told they can do and be anything they want to be.”

This statement is a current view, traditionally no, girls and women were suppressed in a number of ways that prevented them from being masculine or tomboyish. I am not a biological female, so I can only go by what others have said and what I have observed.

The most blaring one is Barbie and the Girl Scouts in which they advertise “You can be anything” it’s on TV all the time that as a girl you can be anything you want, even traditionally male roles or jobs. I’ve come across numerous articles about girls and women in traditional male scenarios who are praised for breaking the social norm. My own field of work is dominated by males, the few females I’ve been able to work with were just as capable as their male counterparts. I’ve also hired a few women and I’d pit them against any of the men on my staff.

In many references, it was often said that if you were a girl and wanted to do something boyish, you could just do it and it’s very easy to find examples of this. Now again, this was not always the case, laws such as Title IX that while not sexist in wording, was put into place so that girls could have the same opportunities as boys. Nowadays we still often praise girls and chid boys when they step outside traditional western views of gender.

And now the other points.

I was told that I said that I wanted to be treated better than women and LGBTQ people and that I didn’t know what they were dealing with and that I was throwing them under the bus.

Well maybe? I don’t know, I wrote a lot, but let’s continue, I’ve read enough stories and dealt with enough people that I know they are dealing with a lot and certainly not all of it is good. Is my struggle any less real than theirs? In my opinion no, now I did claim they have better avenues for support then I do. Which with a simple search would confirm this, a quick search would lead you to a website that lists 25 organizations that deal with gender equality. Out of the 25 I believe 20 of them focus on girls and women, three are open, but don’t cover the US of which leaves two to deal with men’s issues. A simple search on “sex gender equality” will give you a long list of organizations, most of which specifically say they focus on girls and women. Of the numerous organizations that I have emailed and called, I have yet to have one extend a hand.

Around me there are numerous local gender and LGBTQ organizations, I believe I contacted 5 and I received the same answer at all 5. Since I was a male and I identified as a male, they could not help me as they focused on LGBTQ issues. Now I did contact a men’s support group, but they focused on abuse cases, not civil rights matters. Now the LGBTQ organizations were able to give me a reference to an attorney to contact, alas their practice did not cover my issue. In fact my request was passed onto 2 more attorneys before I reached a dead end. As such I contacted the bar and eventually found my current attorney, of which has dealt with civil rights, they however have never dealt with, yet heard of a case such as mine.

Now as far as support for women and LGBTQ goes, it is very obvious that there are far more resources available to them and even specific laws to encourage others to include them compared to someone such as myself.

The only law I have that I can use is Ohio Revised Code 4112.02 (G)

“4112.02 (G) For any proprietor or any employee, keeper, or manager of a place of public accommodation to deny to any person, except for reasons applicable alike to all persons regardless of race, color, religion, sex, military status, national origin, disability, age, or ancestry, the full enjoyment of the accommodations, advantages, facilities, or privileges of the place of public accommodation.”

Specifically sex, it’s been used before by women who were told they needed to wear a skirt or dress in order to patronize an establishment as men could participate while wearing pants.

Now I’ve been told I don’t face the same issues as women and LGBTQ people, they focused on getting shot at and violence, some of their claims are unrealistic as the venue they are talking about does not exist. So it’s hard to say when it does exist that it will suffer from the same wrath as they have experienced. If one were to look at some of the comments in my other posts, you would be hard pressed to say that I would be exempt.

Let me try to condense and simplify my experience of being a male figure skater that wears dresses.

Let’s say I want to go on a date night with my wife at a restaurant in a new dress. The first thing to do is to get a dress made as off the rack won’t work. After numerous calls and emails (around 30) I eventually find a seamstress that’s willing to make a dress for me. It gets made and is absolutely beautiful and exactly what I wanted. Furthermore, let’s say within an hour of where I live there are 12 restaurants to eat at. My wife and I show up both wearing dresses, and while we are greeted, my presence is not acknowledged. The server comes and takes my wife’s order but walks away when I tell them mine, nobody returns to take my order and it seems if I want to eat, I have to get my own tableware and cook my own food as well as wash everything when done. Now by chance, one of the restaurants we visit has a chef that will cook food for both me and my wife. After a few times however, other people ask to not have their food cooked by this chef. Eventually the chef says they can no longer cook my food as they have bills to pay. This chef ends up being blacklisted in the community and finds it difficult to find places to cook at. Due to this, no other chefs are willing to risk cooking for me, as such, while I can visit the restaurant, I can only enjoy it’s ambiance, and if I want to eat, I have to do everything on my own while my wife enjoys full service as well as the table across the aisle with a man and women in pants and another women in a skirt.

This is a very short and simple example of what I have experienced.

One could say why didn’t I sue people or hold them accountable? I ask, how? Most of what I experienced is that even though it was blatant, it was not anything anyone was willing to investigate. After all, I was just some weird guy wearing a dress and supposedly deserved it. I would post my coach request on the board to only have it disappear, calling only resulted in hang-ups once they knew my name. One time I overheard a coach talking to another skater about several of their available time slots. When I approached them they told me they were fully booked at every rink. I had a coach who I guess didn’t know me come to the rink to give me a lesson, when I didn’t see when my lesson was supposed to start I asked someone. They said that they did show up and left, when I called they said they were not feeling well and needed to cancel. I was told to just put pants on if I wanted lessons, you know what? I did this for a whole season and nothing changed! Another coach said they would teach me, but that I could never wear a skirt or dress again, even when not skating.

So let’s get back to them saying that I think women and LGBTQ people suffer less than I do for wearing skirts.

Women, well, they can wear skirts, I mean there’s not much more to it, I think one would be hard pressed to find an instance other than safety that a woman was told that they can’t wear a skirt or dress. Don’t even tell me about modesty either when a woman can wear a see through skirt or dress that exposes her underwear and it’s deemed acceptable. Lawmakers trying to ban saggy pants on men yet do nothing for the current no pants trend or thongs, don’t tell me there’s no double standard!

As for trans, most people I have dealt with succeed with passing as a female, certainly some are more passable then others. As such they tend to enjoy the same privileges as their female counterparts such as wearing skirts, dresses or booty shorts. Now I can’t say they can do it with impunity as I haven’t come across a lot of stories that if they were found to be trans that they were asked to leave. Since they passed, they were able to participate instead of being denied by the cultural expectations imposed on males. By the same token, they told me that they often found themselves not able to participate in the same activities as when they were male.

As for myself I have received numerous threats, including death, from all kinds of people. Thankfully I have dealt with very few in person verbal and no physical assaults. Does being a white male play into this? It’s hard to say, I’ve certainly read stories from others that are more violent than my own experiences. But by the same token, I have also read stories from people that were accepted and thrived in their community. I think a lot of it depends what kind of situation you put yourself into. I myself am not one to go to bars as I don’t drink, now I did go to a few transgender friendly bars back in the day and paid $3 for a small glass of orange juice.

Now some people might be offended by what I say next, but this was something told to me by another trans person. They told me it was much more dangerous for me then them as I did nothing to hide who I was. For them they were happy that most people didn’t know who they were when being trans.

Strangely, I’ve been accused of being a child predator. As such, I wonder how many people could describe me to a T compared to a typical man if I were to do something?

Think about all that I’ve written above, BIPOC, LQBTQ+, and females have more resources and laws to abolish their exclusion than there are to recognize and include non-traditional males. This is not a false statement, if I was anything other than a white heterosexual male. Not only could I find and receive support from numerous organizations, the media would be reporting my experience all over the world. People scoff at me all the time when I say I’ve been discriminated against, me, a white male, how could I be?

Another remark was made that sexist dress codes in sports only exist to keep LGBTQ people from participating. And that the discrimination I have been facing is because of this. Unfortunately they are misguided as sexist dress codes have been around for a very long time. Think of work and school, the two major institutions that us humans are involved with in our lives compared to LGBTQ which only came to light in the 90’s

In my school boys had to wear shirts and shorts/pants, girls could wear the same as well as cami crop tops and miniskirts. Nowadays most schools have changed to a more modest sex neutral dress code.

Then work, businesses also used to have sexist dress codes, I can’t say if any still do. I recall seeing a poster about five years ago of what men could wear vs what women could wear. I seriously doubt that any business could force a woman to wear a skirt at work, and for that matter, say that a man couldn’t. And some of the posters I see nowadays reflect that in being sex neutral and some do include skirts.

Is there a solution to this? Not currently no, the problem being is that the overall box that contains mankind, is continuously being divided into smaller and smaller sections. We as humans it seems love to divide things and then exert power over them saying we are better than you and other such nonsense.

There are unfortunately a number of bills and laws trying or being passed to limit trans athletes from participating in their chosen gender. A lot of this seems to come from wanting to prevent trans women from being in the same locker room as cis women. This of course comes from the fear that they are only in the women’s locker room to harm them. I dare say to just ask any trans woman what their intentions are when they enter the women’s restroom. I think you will find there answer to be “Get in and get out as fast as possible!” Seriously, ask one if you don’t believe me. Now the naysayers will come back and say that allowing this will allow predators easy entry, of which I cannot argue with that assumption. Unfortunately we as a society are predisposed at making men evil and the crux of the issues we have in society. Fact of the matter, and in my experience, both sides are just as guilty and any reasonable and unbiased study will show this.

My opinion? Make restrooms, locker rooms, sports, and whatever else coed and base competitions on ability rather than sex or gender. And yes, some sports should be further segregated by weight, hopefully it can be limited to that as otherwise we end back up where we started.

Am I jealous at the amount of news coverage other groups get compared to gender non-conforming males? I’ll admit that I could be, but wouldn’t those same groups be jealous if the situation was reversed? In fact one can find numerous stories about women doing non-traditional things such as truck driving, any trades, doctor, mechanic, police officer, etc. Right now of course there is all kinds of talk about trans athletes and what they are facing.

So why wouldn’t I say “Hey! What about me?” when I hear a story about someone that experienced discrimination or faced bigoted actions against them similar to my own? Why is my story less worthy of being told? Why?

With all the personal attacks, talking over, belittling, and being censored, I was the one actually being called a narcissist.

Did I win this argument? No, did the other person win? In my opinion also no. But given the tone of their words and personal stabs, I’m guessing they are gloating and claiming victory when in fact it was a loss for both sides. Obviously of course this is my opinion as two people can win an argument if one is silenced.

I don’t think I said women and LGBTQ people had it easier, although it possibly could be inferred from by my observations.

I think any person not conforming to traditional societal views could face discrimination and bigoted actions by others. Be they a women, LGBTQ, BIPOC, or a white heterosexual man in a skirt.

Everyone talks about race, nationality, women, and now gender when it comes to bigotry and discrimination. Who should we fear when even a white heterosexual male experiences the same?

(1) Women’s clothing, It’s often been said I am wearing women’s clothing, I’ve asked some women wearing pants if they are wearing men’s pants, some say yes. Others say no as they are wearing women’s pants as they were tailored for women’s bodies. And even others just say the label say’s women’s so t’s women’s pants. To the ones that disagreed I asked if I had a dress tailored to me, would it not then be a men’s dress? Most said no, it’s still a women’s dress as only women wear dresses. If we go back in my history you can find several statements made by me that I said I was wearing “My dress” and not a women’s dress. And that’s how I perceive what I am wearing, it’s neither men’s, or woman’s, it’s mine.

(2) I use female/male to be all encompassing of girls and women or boys and men.

(3) Sex/Gender are two different things, unfortunately in today’s society we have a lot of trouble saying the word sex to describe someone’s physical attributes. As such most people instead will use gender even when it applies to someone’s physical body. For me, sex is the biological attributes of one’s body of which it seems can be more diverse than male and female. Gender is a social construct, something we as a society have decided to assign to an object and/or one’s actions.